Ugh, I Can’t Believe He Picked Vancouver
Dec 18th, 2008 | By Mike | Category: NewsDec 19 Update - This is what happens when you post in 30 seconds and run out. Dining and dashing never works.
Anyway, what I meant to stress below is that my concern is more about the contract status for Ohlund and the Sedins, not that signing Sundin prohibits a new contract for them. I’m suggesting those three hold more importance to the team’s future past this season then Sundin. Come July 1, as Luongo heads into his final year, this team doesn’t have the rights to any of them. Lots of time left to fix that, but I’m concerned nonetheless.
And since we don’t know the final numbers, I can’t really estimate the cap hit and how that affects further additions to the team should some fall in Gillis’s lap. Though it sounds like Sundin took less in either his signing bonus or prorated deal to allow Gillis some further wiggle room. If that’s the case, then it’s the first bit of good news I’ve heard in the past 12 hours.
Until I see Sundin prove otherwise, I find myself in the odd position of agreeing with Scott Burnside of all people. And it doesn’t take much to understand the rage of Leafs fans this morning either.
************
I have about thirty seconds to comment on Sundin, but in those thirty seconds I will make myself the most unloved blogger in my little Canuck family.
My heart sunk a little when I saw the TSN graphic. I disagree with Leaf-Happy Sean that this makes us a contender. Why? Because we already were and now have no cap space when we get nailed with injuries (like, oh, last night when O’Brien and Salo went down) or when we have a shot at acquiring a younger player who will stay longer than a few months and could be another crucial building block. Honestly, I still stand by every line I said when I asked him to go away.
Ironically the only one I agree with right now is Gillis:
“I think we’re a better team for sure but I’m not going to place that label (Stanley Cup contender) on any team.”
Damn straight you shouldn’t. No one should.
Some parting thoughts:
- What of Ohlund’s contract status?
- What of the Sedins contract status?
- Honestly, where the hell does he play?
- When does the bald one start?
- When can I start bitching about his game shape?
Lastly, keep him away from Salo at all times.
Fine, I didn’t want the old guy but now he’s here for a million more than Luongo and for basically half the season. Cute. Pressure’s on. You’re MY old guy now so I get to bitch to no end.
This isn’t some sort of odd vacation Mats. We have a team that’s doing better then expected, a GM willing to take a risk and a nation of fans who were just reminded last night of how close we once were and how badly we want to be back there.
So help me God if you let us down…
December 18th, 2008 7:22 pm
Bald is bad when it comes to the canucks. Messier and Bulis come to mind.
December 18th, 2008 8:54 pm
Just like Wellwood, you will learn to love Sundin. I’m glad it is only for the remainder of this season. We can sign Ohlund and the Sedins for next year knowing that if Sundin doesn’t pan out, he can walk away. But if this does pan out… oh my stars. Squeeeee!
I think he should play with Demitra and Wellwood, but more likely with Demitra and Raymond. The Sedins can stick with Hansen (or hell, even Pyatt…), as the pressure will not be one them as much. We’ve got a genuine, career point-per-game, clutch superstar who can turn the tide of a game .
As far as adding depth at the deadline, if we get more injuries, their salary doesn’t count again the cap anyway. So we’ve got at least a million in wiggle room.
Oh, it’s gonna be good. Real Good.
December 18th, 2008 9:26 pm
I’m somewhere between your rage/pessimism (Mike) and Temujin’s giddy optimism…closer to optimistic, I guess. He’s no saviour, and this doesn’t fix Luongo’s groin (or Salo’s tendency to fall apart like an ‘86 Hyundai Pony), but he nobody can legitimately argue that his contribution won’t help. Two real scoring lines is huge. Another excellent forward at both ends of the ice is worth a lot.
I’m glad it’s just one year, and yes, it’s still too much money, but they had money to spend and I wasn’t seeing any other good options out there — better than a trade-deadline rental in my opinion. He’s got time to get up to speed and fit in, and it’s not too hard to envision the Canucks squeaking into the playoffs in fine form.
December 18th, 2008 9:44 pm
Rich – Shit you’re right, I focus so much on Messier I forgot Bulis! Jury is still out on Demitra but so far he’s the best of the bald bunch! Auld was decent as a band aid solution.
Temujin – What I know now is that this team, as of next year, doesn’t have Sundin, the Sedins or Ohlund. Swish that around in your mind for a second. Talk about going from best to worst. And this: “We’ve got a genuine, career point-per-game, clutch superstar who can turn the tide of a game.” You have to step back from the ledge my friend. This is a different team in a different conference. I simply cannot just shit myself with glee until he proves himself. When Scott N. did this with Anaheim after the Cup win he was a shell of his former self. I expect the Sundin we get is not the one you think. But I was wrong about Wellwood so I’d be happy to be wrong again as long as the team wins.
Jeremy – I’ve never said he couldn’t contribute, I outright said that in my other Sundin post. My concern is that we blew the cap on a player in the definition of the twilight of his career. That money could have brought in one to two other players. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe the market wasn’t as generous as I think. But I’m not a fan of blowing the cap wad on a single player (unless it’s a goalie of Luongo’s caliber). I’d be happy to be wrong, but he has to prove he is worthy of all this praise. The Messier comparisons are so strong it’s sickening.
December 18th, 2008 10:52 pm
Hmmm, bald former captain (with legendary leadership skills) of an original six team signed for an insane amount of money.
Actually, despite the bad flashbacks, Gillis seems to have minimized the negatives. He claims that they have structured it so that they still have $6 million under the cap, he didn’t sign for next year so there is no cap hit that will preclude them from signing Ohlund and the Sedins. I think the jury is out – he won’t put them over the top, he might mess up team chemistry. I don’t think that he will force the existing captain to turn over his C, and have him traded away.
They aren’t heading to Tokyo for a game I hope.
December 19th, 2008 4:16 am
Ellis is making a strong case for a lengthy playoff run with Sundin. a poker star gamble for sure but one with little rish IMHO.
December 19th, 2008 4:54 am
Andy – I know the cap hit doesn’t stop hi from resigning OHlund/Sedins; I more said that because I think those three are more important then the bald one. And, as it stands now, all four are not Canucks the second this season stops. Gillis has a lot of work left to do.
How bad is this? I found someone else I agree with: Scott Burnside. Puke.
December 19th, 2008 8:13 am
i said it in july and i’ll say it again. this is nothing like messier. age, hairline, and $$ aside, there is a big fundamental difference. Messier was brought in on a long term deal to not only fix but reinvent the team. Messier didn’t suck as a player when he was here–he was a point a game guy who re-invigorated bure and got naslund on track. what sucked about messier was he was brought in with keenan to completely change the tom renney culture. remember, the canucks were broken before mess and keenan arrived.
sundin isn’t here as the centrepiece of a long term extreme makeover of the canucks. he’s here to be a second line centre for 4 months plus the playoffs. he improves the team substantially in every area (scoring, special teams, defense, grit, leadership, exerience), isn’t priced to the point where he keeps us from exploiting our cap space at the deadline, won’t stop us from signing the other 3 swedes next year. This is nothing but good. just remember that bald or not sundin is just being brought in as a very good second line centre with grit and experience.
December 19th, 2008 9:00 am
philb – From a management perspective you’re right there’s a difference. However, from what was expected on the ice from each I think is similar short of the actual contract length. Messier I don’t think originally was brought in to captain the team (Linden, being the stand up guy that he is, called a spade a spade on that). But you’re right he was brought in to help reinvigorate the team at the same time that Orca Bay REALLY wanted a big named player. Sundin is far different in that respect; however with the money he got, the six month lead up to this (which we’ll never have any idea what other deals Gillis could have pulled the trigger on while we waited) and the role he’s going to play on this team (i.e. he’s now the guy the opposing defense will key in on, freeing the Sedins up or so the theory goes) the expectations on him and Messier are really similar. He’s the go-to guy now and the expectations go up accordingly.
The biggest similarity was the choice they made to come to Vancouver in the twilight of their careers and the prospect of, for Vancouver fans, that they could do in their late 30’s what they did in their late 20’s or early 30’s. That’s a recipe for disaster IMO.
Unless this season takes a massive upswing, I doubt he’ll be back next season. And if he were, you better believe it’ll effect signing the other three OR anyone else for that matter. But I think Gillis is going for broke and, well, why not? The team is in on the fence for what next year will be (a reloading or rebuilding) so why not go gangbusters to send a message to soon to be FA’s on Vancouver and elsewhere he’s committed to winning? I’m cool with that concept.
Vigneault could be an X factor here too. If he’s true to his word, then good play wins the icetime. If Sundin hits the skeds, then let him go play on the third line.
And I’ll agree with scoring, special teams, leadership and experience but grit? Doug Gilmour he’s not. He’s certainly not about to go smashmouth on anyone. I wouldn’t define grit because of his sheer size; that just makes hard to knock him off the puck. And grit we certainly don’t need anyway. I am positive if anyone takes liberty with Sundin, he can likely defend himself and will have an entire fourth line plus PIM leader O’Brien in on him.
December 19th, 2008 12:18 pm
Thanks Mike, appreciate the discussion. I’m completely on the fence with this decision. I haven’t watched enough of Mats in his prime to be completely gonzo on this signing, but have seen enough holes in this years surprising start to be completely against it too. I think we’ll know what the current team is capable of by the all-star break, since by then we’ll see what Sundin brings and should be close to if not at the return of Luongo.
If nothing else, we have a team that sits tied for the lead in arguably the most contested division in the NHL, and have just signed a high-impact player. This beats following anything that happened in Seattle this year by a LONG SHOT. I’m enjoying the anticipation to see what this team can put together in the next few months. Should be interesting if nothing else.
December 19th, 2008 1:55 pm
i’m sticking to the idea that if Mess had arrived as just a player, even at a big salary, without the idea that he was going to turn this collection of lovable losers around, and if he hadn’t come paired with Keenan, and if he weren’t associated to linden’s loss of the C and eventual trade, and with the trade of Gelinas–take away all that and if we paid Mess ($7?) million a year and he was an 80+ point player for his tenure here, i don’t think people would have a bad taste in their mouths. yeah people would have realized that we expected too much, and he didn’t bring us a cup or get a hundred points or guarantee any wins, but he played well enough to be our first line center and turn two underachievers into 40+ goal scorers.
do people expect too much? yep. Is he worth 9M? nope. but really, a player doesn’t have intrinsic value anymore. He’s worth what a team can afford to pay him, based on what role he’s expected to fill. Considering we can fit him in and we don’t have anything else to throw 9M at, i think he’s a good add. if he scores at a 65 point pace, takes heat off the Sedins, and makes a couple of linemates better, then i’m happy.
Quite frankly, 9M is worth it just to read the comments on the Leafs and Rangers blogs. 1st person to go to toronot wearing a canucks sundin jersey wins!!
December 19th, 2008 9:29 pm
“I disagree with Leaf-Happy Sean that this makes us a contender. Why? Because we already were and now have no cap space when we get nailed with injuries (like, oh, last night when O’Brien and Salo went down) or when we have a shot at acquiring a younger player who will stay longer than a few months and could be another crucial building block.”
This is where you lost me. Mats is signing at about 8 million pro-rated plus a 2 million u.s signing bonus. After this deal is pro-rated, that leaves us with a little more than 2 million in cap space. Come trade deadline time, that gives us about the ability to go out and acquire about a 6 million dollar player (perhaps a top defense man to step in, or to fill in if the defense can’t stay healthy, or another top 6 forward for that matter). Secondly, what younger player is there to pick up? There aren’t just Toews’s, Kane’s, Ovechkin’s sitting around scratching their asses waiting to be signed from free agency. Mats Sundin was clearly the best available free agent to be signed, and Gillis managed to sign him to our team, the Canucks. I believe that Mats is a perfect fit for the rest of this season, and with one more addition at the trade deadline, this team could be a “Cup contender”. You can’t honestly say to yourself that this team is a serious cup contender. Sure there is always a chance, and sure they are a good regular season team at this point. I am a die hard Canucks fan, but I just can’t see a team being quarterbacked offensively by the Sedin twins winning the stanley cup, they just don’t have enough passion and grit to take a team to the Cup.
I do not agree with signing Mats to a deal next year. He is a perfect fit this year. He even took a slight pay cut in his contract to give Gillis a little more room to work at the deadline. I am looking at this as if he is coming in as a rent-a-player at the deadline, he is going to help us be a better team for the rest of the year. I believe that signing Mats to a deal next year wouldn’t be a smart idea, Canucks need to find a younger goal scorer in the off season (someone of the Kovalchuk, or Hossa talent level) who can play on a line with Demitra or whoever will put up points, and who can be here for awhile, and this will be a competitive team for years to come.
December 20th, 2008 9:10 am
Nooner – Please note that the part where I lost you was that night before we knew the numbers. At the time I was taking a guess that whatever his numbers were it’d end up leaving the Canucks with a million or so in cap space. I appreciate that he didn’t rape Vancouver entirely.
Secondly, I wasn’t insinuating that there are guys sitting around scratching their asses (in fact, Sundin is the only notable one I can think of who fits that group). I more meant through trade routes, as in we’ll never know what offers came Gillis’s way that he couldn’t act on because he kept the door open for Mats. That dates back to July 1st so I find it hard to think he didn’t have something come his way. I’m curious what those were and if the return would have been better then the half year we’ll get from Mats. I think that’s a fair question and moreover that’s the cap era for you. You have to be really wise with what you do, otherwise you end up like the Rangers.
A agree with you that this team isn’t a serious cup contender with Sundin in there. He certainly helps, but they need a lot more. I can’t believe I am about to write this, but they need more Wellwoods and less Pyatts, more Kesler and less Berniers. i can’t see any of these guys really becoming a Johan Franzen type player that is so crucial in the post season.
If you feel Mats is a great rental, short term fit, maybe you’re right. I don’t know yet (how can any of us until he gets on the ice?). I know philosophically speaking I loathe this sort of thing. Depending on how the season pans out I don’t see him coming back either but the hidden silver lining may be other free agents see this team is real, the GM is real and it’s that much desirable to come here (and secondly it sends a message to Luongo to re up). So I see a lot more secondary type benefits to having Sundin here. But anything else I think I need to see what he does out there.
But hey, what the hell do I know?!
January 1st, 2009 5:02 pm
Think you’re missing a vital point here. What the Canucks get is something serious lacking for past years – a sort of die hard winner mentality certanly not provided by the Sedins or almost any other on the rooster (maybe O brien apart) Sundin is (or has been) of a different calibre for his entire career. Sort of a player to turn things around by sheer example. Bald he may be but a winner by the bone. Don’t be confused by his dedication to stay in the mediocre Leafs for so long. In the swedish natinal team he has delivered Gold medals almost anually. Exactly what we need.
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